1 00:00:21,930 --> 00:00:09,110 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:28,270 --> 00:00:24,400 hello and welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:28,280 show number 277 Richard Saunders here 4 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:29,810 with you from Sydney Australia still a 5 00:00:34,630 --> 00:00:31,250 little bit under the weather my friends 6 00:00:36,130 --> 00:00:34,640 I regret to tell you getting there 7 00:00:38,370 --> 00:00:36,140 getting better but the old voice has 8 00:00:40,690 --> 00:00:38,380 taken a bit of a hammering can't quite 9 00:00:43,060 --> 00:00:40,700 can't quite get it better at the moment 10 00:00:45,190 --> 00:00:43,070 still that shouldn't stop me bringing 11 00:00:46,420 --> 00:00:45,200 you this week's episode of the skeptic 12 00:00:49,119 --> 00:00:46,430 zone we're going to kick off with a 13 00:00:51,510 --> 00:00:49,129 report which can be found at our website 14 00:00:55,540 --> 00:00:51,520 the Australian skeptics website that is 15 00:00:58,810 --> 00:00:55,550 ww skeptics calm today you the story of 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:00:58,820 dr. ken harvey resigning from latrobe 17 00:01:04,479 --> 00:01:01,730 university over the deal they have done 18 00:01:06,940 --> 00:01:04,489 with the swiss wellness vitamin company 19 00:01:09,190 --> 00:01:06,950 dr. ken harvey as well known to skeptics 20 00:01:11,290 --> 00:01:09,200 and soon we'll be hearing about he 21 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:11,300 really stood on his principles and made 22 00:01:15,700 --> 00:01:13,010 what many considered to be the right 23 00:01:17,170 --> 00:01:15,710 move in resigning from the university 24 00:01:19,660 --> 00:01:17,180 over this issue we'll hear more about 25 00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:19,670 that in a report coming up at the top of 26 00:01:24,670 --> 00:01:22,310 the show and then after the break its 27 00:01:27,130 --> 00:01:24,680 Maynard spooky action may nods going to 28 00:01:30,789 --> 00:01:27,140 be chatting to rob burn from rotary all 29 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:30,799 about the end polio now campaign now Rob 30 00:01:35,469 --> 00:01:33,170 Byrne was a recent guest at skeptics in 31 00:01:38,260 --> 00:01:35,479 the pub and what are entertaining an 32 00:01:40,870 --> 00:01:38,270 interesting thought provoking talk he 33 00:01:45,310 --> 00:01:40,880 gave about rotaries efforts around the 34 00:01:47,529 --> 00:01:45,320 world to rid the world of polio very 35 00:01:49,539 --> 00:01:47,539 encouraging and and what a great talk it 36 00:01:51,490 --> 00:01:49,549 was so we'll be hearing from rod burn 37 00:01:54,190 --> 00:01:51,500 with Maynard then may not church to all 38 00:01:57,670 --> 00:01:54,200 sorts of people at the pub posing a 39 00:02:00,219 --> 00:01:57,680 couple of questions one is how do people 40 00:02:02,830 --> 00:02:00,229 think they would go if they had to do a 41 00:02:08,529 --> 00:02:02,840 bill nighy in other words debate 42 00:02:10,950 --> 00:02:08,539 creationists hmm also he asked what 43 00:02:15,100 --> 00:02:10,960 would take them what would it take you 44 00:02:18,130 --> 00:02:15,110 to leave your job on a matter of 45 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:18,140 principles and speaking of the Ken Ham 46 00:02:25,690 --> 00:02:21,170 Bill Nye debate just the other day a few 47 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:25,700 days ago I like many was well to be 48 00:02:30,100 --> 00:02:27,410 honest slightly worried about that is 49 00:02:33,759 --> 00:02:30,110 not a good idea to debate creationist I 50 00:02:34,540 --> 00:02:33,769 think it's generally held that that it's 51 00:02:39,490 --> 00:02:34,550 not a good idea how 52 00:02:40,710 --> 00:02:39,500 I think however despite concerns I think 53 00:02:43,210 --> 00:02:40,720 bill nye did a pretty good job 54 00:02:45,580 --> 00:02:43,220 considering I don't know if you had a 55 00:02:47,830 --> 00:02:45,590 chance to see that debate yet it goes on 56 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:47,840 for quite a long time I know it's 57 00:02:53,290 --> 00:02:50,330 available on YouTube it's very easy to 58 00:02:56,500 --> 00:02:53,300 find if you just Google bill nye Ken Ham 59 00:02:58,690 --> 00:02:56,510 you'll find it and yeah I think the 60 00:03:02,170 --> 00:02:58,700 general consensus out there is that bill 61 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:02,180 nye did an okay job whereas many in the 62 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:05,690 past of difficulty in debating 63 00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:07,850 creationists for many reasons not at 64 00:03:14,290 --> 00:03:09,710 least being things like the Gish gallup 65 00:03:15,850 --> 00:03:14,300 where creationists will present so many 66 00:03:17,890 --> 00:03:15,860 so-called facts it's impossible to 67 00:03:20,980 --> 00:03:17,900 refute them all and this was named after 68 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:20,990 a very famous creationist too i came to 69 00:03:25,900 --> 00:03:22,610 australia many years ago duane Teague 70 00:03:28,150 --> 00:03:25,910 ish they used to employ this practice 71 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:28,160 well if I don't stop talking soon I 72 00:03:33,550 --> 00:03:30,250 think my voice will run out altogether 73 00:03:35,950 --> 00:03:33,560 so apologies for the rough voice in my 74 00:03:37,990 --> 00:03:35,960 reports this week and thank you for 75 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:38,000 Maynard for stepping in and helping me 76 00:03:42,820 --> 00:03:39,770 out later on in the show with Maynard 77 00:03:49,750 --> 00:03:42,830 spooky action so that being said it's 78 00:03:53,949 --> 00:03:49,760 time to run downstairs look for the new 79 00:03:59,560 --> 00:03:53,959 year chicken soup now soda water mmm 80 00:04:02,320 --> 00:03:59,570 root beer me send your suggestions on a 81 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:02,330 postcard while you're doing that I hope 82 00:04:38,010 --> 00:04:33,990 from the website of Australian skeptics 83 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:38,020 ww skeptics calm day you can Harvey 84 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:40,690 quits over Swiss latrobe deal rejected 85 00:04:46,860 --> 00:04:42,970 by other unis published on Tuesday 86 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:46,870 februari for 2014 and since including 87 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:49,450 this update the proposed deal between 88 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:52,090 Swiss wellness and Latrobe University 89 00:04:57,030 --> 00:04:54,730 that led to serial campaigner dr. ken 90 00:04:59,400 --> 00:04:57,040 harvey to resign his position as adjunct 91 00:05:01,230 --> 00:04:59,410 professor at the unis School of Public 92 00:05:03,390 --> 00:05:01,240 Health has apparently run the gamut of 93 00:05:05,970 --> 00:05:03,400 several universities over a lengthy 94 00:05:09,690 --> 00:05:05,980 period of time before finally being 95 00:05:12,060 --> 00:05:09,700 taken up by latrobe Bond University on 96 00:05:15,390 --> 00:05:12,070 the Queensland Gold Coast was approached 97 00:05:18,420 --> 00:05:15,400 about the possible venture in September 98 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:18,430 2012 before the university rejected it 99 00:05:23,810 --> 00:05:20,770 at least two other universities were 100 00:05:26,610 --> 00:05:23,820 also approached and the offer rejected 101 00:05:29,490 --> 00:05:26,620 Harvey's decision has been supported by 102 00:05:31,890 --> 00:05:29,500 academics around Australia as well as 103 00:05:34,650 --> 00:05:31,900 the Friends of science in medicine and 104 00:05:37,110 --> 00:05:34,660 the consumers health form of Australia 105 00:05:39,060 --> 00:05:37,120 organizations Marc Methot all as 106 00:05:43,250 --> 00:05:39,070 spokesman for the consumer health forum 107 00:05:46,530 --> 00:05:43,260 said that latrobe in describing Swiss as 108 00:05:49,530 --> 00:05:46,540 Victoria's leading global wellness 109 00:05:51,870 --> 00:05:49,540 company quote appears to have fallen for 110 00:05:54,180 --> 00:05:51,880 the company's celebrity backed marketing 111 00:05:56,700 --> 00:05:54,190 pitch such a statement exposes the 112 00:05:59,280 --> 00:05:56,710 university as credulous and naive end 113 00:06:02,370 --> 00:05:59,290 quote at latrobe Swiss will contribute 114 00:06:04,950 --> 00:06:02,380 15 million dollars to the university 115 00:06:08,100 --> 00:06:04,960 over six years as a founding partner of 116 00:06:12,750 --> 00:06:08,110 a complimentary medicine evidence center 117 00:06:15,210 --> 00:06:12,760 CM EC professor Keith Nugent deputy 118 00:06:18,060 --> 00:06:15,220 vice-chancellor research fuller trobe 119 00:06:21,390 --> 00:06:18,070 said in an announcement late in January 120 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:21,400 that quote once the sea mcc is 121 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:24,310 established Swiss will continue to have 122 00:06:26,939 --> 00:06:24,849 its pride 123 00:06:30,389 --> 00:06:26,949 undergo rigorous and independent 124 00:06:32,399 --> 00:06:30,399 scientific assessment and quote Harvey 125 00:06:35,669 --> 00:06:32,409 however has cast doubt on the company's 126 00:06:38,249 --> 00:06:35,679 commitment to such assessment quote 127 00:06:41,159 --> 00:06:38,259 Swiss is well known for prioritizing the 128 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:41,169 marketing of its products especially by 129 00:06:45,449 --> 00:06:43,330 the use of celebrities over their 130 00:06:47,579 --> 00:06:45,459 scientific assessment he told the 131 00:06:50,909 --> 00:06:47,589 university's vice-chancellor in his 132 00:06:52,739 --> 00:06:50,919 letter of resignation quote indeed many 133 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:52,749 of the claims Swiss has made about their 134 00:06:56,219 --> 00:06:54,490 products have been judged to have 135 00:06:59,070 --> 00:06:56,229 breached the Therapeutic Goods 136 00:07:02,809 --> 00:06:59,080 Administration code by the independent 137 00:07:05,219 --> 00:07:02,819 complaint resolution panel CRP in quote 138 00:07:07,259 --> 00:07:05,229 Harvey said that quote many 139 00:07:10,739 --> 00:07:07,269 advertisements claim that Swiss products 140 00:07:13,829 --> 00:07:10,749 were proven clinically proven proven 141 00:07:16,409 --> 00:07:13,839 results scientifically proven clinically 142 00:07:21,119 --> 00:07:16,419 tested with proven results proven in 143 00:07:24,359 --> 00:07:21,129 clinical trials however the CRP quote 144 00:07:26,189 --> 00:07:24,369 noted that most of the study Swiss used 145 00:07:28,290 --> 00:07:26,199 to support these claims were weak in 146 00:07:31,109 --> 00:07:28,300 that they were conducted on a small 147 00:07:33,629 --> 00:07:31,119 number of patients in narrowly defined 148 00:07:35,549 --> 00:07:33,639 groups such as elderly men that are not 149 00:07:38,519 --> 00:07:35,559 representative of the general adult 150 00:07:40,290 --> 00:07:38,529 population to whom the panel considered 151 00:07:42,809 --> 00:07:40,300 the television advertisements were 152 00:07:45,179 --> 00:07:42,819 addressed none of the eight studies 153 00:07:47,699 --> 00:07:45,189 cited supported representations that 154 00:07:50,850 --> 00:07:47,709 Swiss products were clinically proven to 155 00:07:54,029 --> 00:07:50,860 improve stamina energy general health 156 00:07:57,239 --> 00:07:54,039 and well-being or relative fatigue 157 00:07:59,969 --> 00:07:57,249 tiredness or stress in the general adult 158 00:08:02,269 --> 00:07:59,979 population quote I certainly support 159 00:08:04,679 --> 00:08:02,279 more research into the efficacy of 160 00:08:07,409 --> 00:08:04,689 complementary medicines and quote Harvey 161 00:08:10,439 --> 00:08:07,419 said in his letter quote but in my view 162 00:08:13,559 --> 00:08:10,449 it is crucial that the design assessment 163 00:08:15,779 --> 00:08:13,569 and funding of such research be at arm's 164 00:08:18,449 --> 00:08:15,789 length from a particular company and 165 00:08:24,239 --> 00:08:18,459 overseen by an independent body such as 166 00:08:25,799 --> 00:08:24,249 the aarc and/or NH MRC in quote he 167 00:08:28,529 --> 00:08:25,809 pointed out that industry-sponsored 168 00:08:31,049 --> 00:08:28,539 research were more likely to report 169 00:08:33,809 --> 00:08:31,059 positive outcomes than were trials 170 00:08:36,269 --> 00:08:33,819 funded by other sources quote in 171 00:08:38,519 --> 00:08:36,279 addition contract research for industry 172 00:08:41,069 --> 00:08:38,529 can be specifically designed to 173 00:08:43,889 --> 00:08:41,079 provide a particular result for example 174 00:08:45,869 --> 00:08:43,899 performing a battery of 60 or more tests 175 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:45,879 of mental functioning while 176 00:08:49,889 --> 00:08:47,290 administrating a multivitamin 177 00:08:52,379 --> 00:08:49,899 preparation is likely to find that one 178 00:08:54,809 --> 00:08:52,389 or two tests will show statistical 179 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:54,819 significance due to random chance and 180 00:08:59,850 --> 00:08:57,970 quote he suggested that quote one 181 00:09:02,579 --> 00:08:59,860 appropriate mechanism for industry to 182 00:09:04,889 --> 00:09:02,589 assist such research would be for 183 00:09:08,309 --> 00:09:04,899 several companies to partner with one or 184 00:09:12,119 --> 00:09:08,319 more universities in the aarc linkage 185 00:09:13,829 --> 00:09:12,129 grants submission and quote quote I am 186 00:09:16,379 --> 00:09:13,839 concerned that the partnership of 187 00:09:18,269 --> 00:09:16,389 Latrobe University with Swiss wellness 188 00:09:20,549 --> 00:09:18,279 proprietary limited involves a 189 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:20,559 fundamental conflict of interest both 190 00:09:27,119 --> 00:09:24,370 for the proposed cmec and the staff 191 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:27,129 involved in addition I am concerned that 192 00:09:31,650 --> 00:09:29,050 this arrangement will impact on the 193 00:09:35,549 --> 00:09:31,660 reputation of the University given the 194 00:09:37,319 --> 00:09:35,559 track record of Swiss and quote he added 195 00:09:39,569 --> 00:09:37,329 that a large number of his colleagues 196 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:39,579 had raised questions about the 197 00:09:44,699 --> 00:09:41,850 appropriateness of the his ongoing 198 00:09:48,299 --> 00:09:44,709 association with latrobe University 199 00:09:50,549 --> 00:09:48,309 given the arrangements with Swiss quote 200 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:50,559 taking all the above into account I 201 00:09:56,150 --> 00:09:53,170 hereby confirmed my resignation as 202 00:09:58,619 --> 00:09:56,160 adjunct associate professor and quote 203 00:10:00,990 --> 00:09:58,629 Harvey is well known to skeptics for his 204 00:10:03,299 --> 00:10:01,000 ongoing battle both through the 205 00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:03,309 Therapeutic Goods Administration over 206 00:10:07,710 --> 00:10:05,529 claims made by alt MEDC ump anees in 207 00:10:10,499 --> 00:10:07,720 their advertising and promotional 208 00:10:13,439 --> 00:10:10,509 material his complaints have all been 209 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:13,449 upheld upon investigation in particular 210 00:10:18,449 --> 00:10:15,730 he is known for his fight against the 211 00:10:20,850 --> 00:10:18,459 sensor slim company for its claimed 212 00:10:23,249 --> 00:10:20,860 weight loss product sensor slim 213 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:23,259 notoriously sued Harvey in what is 214 00:10:28,530 --> 00:10:25,569 generally regarded as a slap suit 215 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:28,540 designed to keep him quiet Harvey fought 216 00:10:33,329 --> 00:10:30,850 back with financial assistance from the 217 00:10:35,790 --> 00:10:33,339 skeptical community by a fundraising 218 00:10:38,579 --> 00:10:35,800 effort initiated by Australian skeptics 219 00:10:40,949 --> 00:10:38,589 he won the case but despite a court 220 00:10:44,489 --> 00:10:40,959 ruling his costs have not been recovered 221 00:10:46,740 --> 00:10:44,499 from census lim ken harvey was the 222 00:10:49,499 --> 00:10:46,750 winner of the australian skeptics thorny 223 00:10:51,870 --> 00:10:49,509 reward in 2011 and was made a life 224 00:10:57,269 --> 00:10:51,880 member of Australian skeptics in Nova 225 00:11:14,050 --> 00:10:57,279 2013 and that report can be found at ww 226 00:11:16,450 --> 00:11:14,060 skeptics com au welcome to a week in 227 00:11:18,850 --> 00:11:16,460 science from our ions bringing you the 228 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:18,860 science you need to know at the Sochi 229 00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:21,170 Winter Olympics athletes will compete on 230 00:11:25,900 --> 00:11:24,110 a mountain 600 meters above sea level by 231 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:25,910 winter olympics standards it's not that 232 00:11:37,690 --> 00:11:27,650 big but they've still been training in 233 00:11:43,340 --> 00:11:40,129 altitude training became really big 234 00:11:46,519 --> 00:11:43,350 after the Mexico City Olympics in 1968 235 00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:46,529 they happened at an altitude of 2,400 236 00:11:50,509 --> 00:11:48,570 meters and athletes who trained to deal 237 00:11:53,210 --> 00:11:50,519 with the height really dominated of 238 00:11:55,430 --> 00:11:53,220 breaking all kinds records atmospheric 239 00:11:57,170 --> 00:11:55,440 pressure decreases at high altitudes 240 00:11:59,569 --> 00:11:57,180 which basically means that the air 241 00:12:01,670 --> 00:11:59,579 becomes thinner the molecules are spaced 242 00:12:04,639 --> 00:12:01,680 further apart meaning that every breath 243 00:12:06,230 --> 00:12:04,649 you take contains less oxygen this means 244 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:06,240 that your body has to work a lot harder 245 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:08,610 to get the same amount of oxygen to all 246 00:12:13,129 --> 00:12:11,130 your muscles and organs researchers 247 00:12:16,069 --> 00:12:13,139 estimate that you work twenty percent 248 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:16,079 harder at 3000 meters altitude as your 249 00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:17,850 heart rate increases and you breathe 250 00:12:21,980 --> 00:12:20,310 faster so it's no surprise that athletes 251 00:12:25,819 --> 00:12:21,990 will climate eyes to this elevation 252 00:12:27,410 --> 00:12:25,829 perform better there are a couple of 253 00:12:29,750 --> 00:12:27,420 different ways that you can train for 254 00:12:31,939 --> 00:12:29,760 competing at high altitude one famous 255 00:12:34,550 --> 00:12:31,949 study tested three different training 256 00:12:36,829 --> 00:12:34,560 regimes the first regime was trained low 257 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:36,839 live high where athletes trained at a 258 00:12:42,079 --> 00:12:39,570 normal elevation but slept and lived at 259 00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:42,089 high altitude the second group trained 260 00:12:47,269 --> 00:12:44,910 and lived at high altitudes while the 261 00:12:49,430 --> 00:12:47,279 last group lived and trained at a normal 262 00:12:51,790 --> 00:12:49,440 level they were basically the control 263 00:12:54,620 --> 00:12:51,800 group the athletes in the high altitude 264 00:12:56,900 --> 00:12:54,630 regimes both showed an increase in red 265 00:13:00,439 --> 00:12:56,910 blood cells to carry more oxygen around 266 00:13:02,780 --> 00:13:00,449 their bodies but only the trainload live 267 00:13:05,210 --> 00:13:02,790 high group improves their running times 268 00:13:07,310 --> 00:13:05,220 many sporting facilities like the 269 00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:07,320 Australian Institute of Sport have 270 00:13:12,019 --> 00:13:09,570 special low oxygen homes where athletes 271 00:13:15,050 --> 00:13:12,029 can live and sleep you're listening to a 272 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:15,060 week in science from our AOS and now for 273 00:13:21,550 --> 00:13:18,310 winter sports science facts 274 00:13:23,829 --> 00:13:21,560 winter athletes inhale up to 100 liters 275 00:13:25,780 --> 00:13:23,839 per minute of cold air and have a higher 276 00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:25,790 prevalence of respiratory problems 277 00:13:30,910 --> 00:13:28,880 including asthma a downside of altitude 278 00:13:33,180 --> 00:13:30,920 training is that athletes sleep worse 279 00:13:35,740 --> 00:13:33,190 and may have a weakened immune system 280 00:13:38,139 --> 00:13:35,750 aerodynamics is hugely important in many 281 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:38,149 winter sports ski jumpers hold their 282 00:13:43,180 --> 00:13:40,490 bodies at precise angles to generate 283 00:13:45,939 --> 00:13:43,190 lift cross country skiing is one of the 284 00:13:48,220 --> 00:13:45,949 most energy-intensive sports with skiers 285 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:48,230 displaying some of the highest oxygen 286 00:13:55,689 --> 00:13:53,569 capacities vo2 max ever recorded that's 287 00:13:57,610 --> 00:13:55,699 it for this week in science for more 288 00:14:01,449 --> 00:13:57,620 information about winter sports science 289 00:14:03,850 --> 00:14:01,459 check out our website are I aus org dot 290 00:14:06,430 --> 00:14:03,860 a you follow us on Twitter and like us 291 00:14:11,889 --> 00:14:06,440 on facebook i'm karen green and we'll 292 00:14:14,170 --> 00:14:11,899 catch you next week hello there this is 293 00:14:15,759 --> 00:14:14,180 dusty springfield is some hideous hour 294 00:14:17,499 --> 00:14:15,769 of the morning in England and I really 295 00:14:18,819 --> 00:14:17,509 resent may not calling me at this time 296 00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:18,829 of the morning I've had eight cups of 297 00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:20,870 coffee and I feel really lousy and I'm 298 00:14:24,819 --> 00:14:22,880 totally do real Wally and I tell you I 299 00:14:26,319 --> 00:14:24,829 have to agree with that I've only known 300 00:14:27,730 --> 00:14:26,329 him for eight minutes and he strikes me 301 00:14:29,590 --> 00:14:27,740 as being the biggest whirling I've ever 302 00:14:30,819 --> 00:14:29,600 known it in my life but anyway you 303 00:14:38,199 --> 00:14:30,829 better listen to him because he plays 304 00:14:42,380 --> 00:14:38,209 good record here's my not spooky action 305 00:14:46,010 --> 00:14:42,390 at the distance 306 00:14:48,110 --> 00:14:46,020 oh no no look I'm here in an alcove it's 307 00:14:50,180 --> 00:14:48,120 skeptics in the pub Sydney here with Rob 308 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:50,190 what rubble little boy you've got a huge 309 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:52,650 Rotarian nametag there what's it say it 310 00:14:57,050 --> 00:14:54,570 says Rob burn and I'm from the Rotary 311 00:14:59,570 --> 00:14:57,060 Club of tera mera and I'm the polio 312 00:15:01,460 --> 00:14:59,580 chair for this part of Sydney was that 313 00:15:03,050 --> 00:15:01,470 it was a big competition to get that 314 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:03,060 chair is it a tough one I mean did a lot 315 00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:04,650 of people want to really hit that have 316 00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:06,000 you done that for years and you're the 317 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:08,160 guy who's a guy go-to guy I basically 318 00:15:13,580 --> 00:15:11,210 didn't step back fast enough main idea 319 00:15:16,700 --> 00:15:13,590 okay you were saying how a Rotarian czar 320 00:15:17,930 --> 00:15:16,710 into eliminating polio and and you had 321 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:17,940 an influence of that early in your 322 00:15:22,820 --> 00:15:20,130 childhood why is that one disease the 323 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:22,830 one they they picked well there's a long 324 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:24,810 history to that and it's one which I've 325 00:15:29,780 --> 00:15:27,330 been researching lately and basically I 326 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:29,790 think the situation was back in the late 327 00:15:36,380 --> 00:15:33,450 70s we were pretty pleased with the fact 328 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:36,390 that smallpox had been eradicated and 329 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:38,250 there was a lot of thought about well 330 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:41,250 what which disease might be next and you 331 00:15:45,470 --> 00:15:43,290 look at the characteristics of polio 332 00:15:48,050 --> 00:15:45,480 which is a virus borne disease which 333 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:48,060 only exists in humans no other animals 334 00:15:54,590 --> 00:15:51,090 and it is a disease which absolutely can 335 00:15:56,810 --> 00:15:54,600 be eradicated provided we have the right 336 00:15:58,730 --> 00:15:56,820 tools and we do we have the right tools 337 00:16:01,520 --> 00:15:58,740 that were invented back in the 50s in 338 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:01,530 the form of vaccines and so these 339 00:16:06,140 --> 00:16:03,810 vaccines have been unbelievably 340 00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:06,150 effective to that point they are 341 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:08,480 unbelievably effective in the West and 342 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:11,490 rotary which is an organization which 343 00:16:17,060 --> 00:16:13,530 believes in taking care of individuals 344 00:16:18,830 --> 00:16:17,070 in the communities felt we should have 345 00:16:21,260 --> 00:16:18,840 that same sort of success in other 346 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:21,270 countries which can't really afford the 347 00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:25,170 vaccines like we can so rotary initiated 348 00:16:29,390 --> 00:16:26,880 a project initially in the Philippines 349 00:16:31,340 --> 00:16:29,400 actually and that was in the late 70s 350 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:31,350 and then in the mid 80s started a 351 00:16:36,050 --> 00:16:33,810 worldwide push called polio plus and 352 00:16:38,330 --> 00:16:36,060 then in 1988 will 353 00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:38,340 joined by the World Health Organization 354 00:16:45,650 --> 00:16:41,910 and others and it's become by far the 355 00:16:47,900 --> 00:16:45,660 biggest public health project the world 356 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:47,910 has ever seen and where does it come 357 00:16:51,530 --> 00:16:49,050 from it's carried through the human 358 00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:51,540 digestive system and most people carry 359 00:16:56,270 --> 00:16:52,980 it without knowing it is that correct 360 00:16:58,490 --> 00:16:56,280 that is correct yeah but the the virus 361 00:17:01,240 --> 00:16:58,500 usually just passes harmlessly through 362 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:01,250 the system the bed that's the good news 363 00:17:08,420 --> 00:17:04,050 only about one in 200 people who have 364 00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:08,430 the virus in their system are paralyzed 365 00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:12,660 by the by the virus however all of those 366 00:17:18,350 --> 00:17:16,740 200 people contagious like they don't 367 00:17:19,580 --> 00:17:18,360 know that they've got the virus they 368 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:19,590 have no way of knowing they've got the 369 00:17:23,060 --> 00:17:21,570 virus but they are contagious just as 370 00:17:25,610 --> 00:17:23,070 contagious as the person has been 371 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:25,620 paralyzed so it's a tough tough disease 372 00:17:30,710 --> 00:17:28,290 to get rid of because of that factor and 373 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:30,720 a major factor is people not washing 374 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:32,490 their hands too and I imagine ever since 375 00:17:35,870 --> 00:17:34,290 the 50s there's been a huge wash your 376 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:35,880 hands campaign in worldwide oh 377 00:17:41,870 --> 00:17:39,450 absolutely I can I I'm baby of the 50s 378 00:17:45,260 --> 00:17:41,880 and I remember very very clearly my 379 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:45,270 mother just being very emphatic about 380 00:17:49,850 --> 00:17:47,250 washing your hands washing your hands 381 00:17:52,340 --> 00:17:49,860 and that is the vector as they say 382 00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:52,350 that's how the disease is transmitted 383 00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:54,510 from one person to another 30 must drive 384 00:17:58,370 --> 00:17:56,370 you crazy when you go to a pub like we 385 00:17:59,720 --> 00:17:58,380 all do and you see so many guys walking 386 00:18:02,720 --> 00:17:59,730 out without washing their hands you feel 387 00:18:05,570 --> 00:18:02,730 like what let's go yet oh yeah yeah well 388 00:18:08,420 --> 00:18:05,580 I gotta say it is primarily fecal matter 389 00:18:11,150 --> 00:18:08,430 right okay yes which is the issue but 390 00:18:12,980 --> 00:18:11,160 yes that is a huge concern and it's 391 00:18:15,170 --> 00:18:12,990 something which we need to lift our game 392 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:15,180 on yeah yep so guys lift your game and 393 00:18:18,650 --> 00:18:16,890 women I know some of you aren't wash in 394 00:18:20,690 --> 00:18:18,660 your hand either you know they don't get 395 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:20,700 away scot-free so what is the big 396 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:22,170 initiative what's what probably that the 397 00:18:27,460 --> 00:18:24,210 silver bullet that come with the magic 398 00:18:30,620 --> 00:18:27,470 book that will wipe out polio well the 399 00:18:34,370 --> 00:18:30,630 thing which we really really need is 400 00:18:37,610 --> 00:18:34,380 more funding the we are short on funds 401 00:18:39,890 --> 00:18:37,620 to finish the job and it's 402 00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:39,900 we're talking vast amounts of money that 403 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:43,200 have been spent already about 10 billion 404 00:18:49,580 --> 00:18:46,890 dollars and over the next six years we 405 00:18:51,170 --> 00:18:49,590 need to spend another five so it's it's 406 00:18:54,530 --> 00:18:51,180 a vast amount of money we need to find 407 00:18:56,650 --> 00:18:54,540 and basically every penny helps you've 408 00:18:58,970 --> 00:18:56,660 got a huge problem with vaccination in 409 00:19:00,890 --> 00:18:58,980 Afghanistan for example where where aid 410 00:19:02,890 --> 00:19:00,900 workers that are in on vaccination 411 00:19:07,970 --> 00:19:02,900 programs are actually been killed yes 412 00:19:09,740 --> 00:19:07,980 Pakistan it's it's a tragedy the we call 413 00:19:13,010 --> 00:19:09,750 them the polio heroes these are the 414 00:19:15,070 --> 00:19:13,020 people who voluntarily go out risking 415 00:19:17,210 --> 00:19:15,080 their lives because there are some 416 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:17,220 misguided people out there who believe 417 00:19:24,980 --> 00:19:21,090 that vaccination is some sort of demonic 418 00:19:26,750 --> 00:19:24,990 sort of a I think it's a tool of the 419 00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:26,760 West is that the way it comes across or 420 00:19:30,830 --> 00:19:28,710 is it a religious thing it's a little 421 00:19:34,790 --> 00:19:30,840 bit of both a tool of the west and the 422 00:19:36,620 --> 00:19:34,800 tool of the devil i mean you mean you 423 00:19:38,210 --> 00:19:36,630 can sort of understand this you know 424 00:19:42,020 --> 00:19:38,220 there are people who don't have the same 425 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:42,030 sort of educational opportunities but we 426 00:19:46,820 --> 00:19:43,890 are getting to those people we sit down 427 00:19:49,610 --> 00:19:46,830 with them we explain how much progress 428 00:19:52,490 --> 00:19:49,620 that we've made we explain why the 429 00:19:53,780 --> 00:19:52,500 disease has gone away in other areas and 430 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:53,790 why their children is still getting 431 00:19:58,970 --> 00:19:56,330 paralyzed and the penny drops 432 00:20:01,010 --> 00:19:58,980 consistently one area after another 433 00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:01,020 where we go and talk to them the penny 434 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:03,510 drops and the religious leaders very 435 00:20:08,060 --> 00:20:05,130 frequently turn into our biggest 436 00:20:10,070 --> 00:20:08,070 advocates yeah so you know that that is 437 00:20:11,540 --> 00:20:10,080 a big turnaround in most cases and 438 00:20:13,010 --> 00:20:11,550 you're here talking to us tonight what's 439 00:20:16,730 --> 00:20:13,020 the what can we do on the local level 440 00:20:19,610 --> 00:20:16,740 well I think that's you know polio is a 441 00:20:21,710 --> 00:20:19,620 disease which is very much invisible 442 00:20:23,390 --> 00:20:21,720 these days we haven't seen a case yeah 443 00:20:25,010 --> 00:20:23,400 in Australia when was the last case Oh 444 00:20:28,580 --> 00:20:25,020 in the back in the back in the night is 445 00:20:31,070 --> 00:20:28,590 well and back into the 90s and so when 446 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:31,080 the disease is invisible like like polio 447 00:20:35,270 --> 00:20:32,850 is now people really don't even know 448 00:20:38,330 --> 00:20:35,280 what it is it's difficult to maintain 449 00:20:40,310 --> 00:20:38,340 the momentum in terms of the funding but 450 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:40,320 there's people like me who had friends 451 00:20:45,470 --> 00:20:42,450 who were paralyzed by this disease who 452 00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:45,480 remember just how hideous this disease 453 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:45,910 is 454 00:20:55,230 --> 00:20:53,110 know paralyzed either in their limbs or 455 00:20:58,620 --> 00:20:55,240 in their lungs or they lose the ability 456 00:21:01,740 --> 00:20:58,630 even to swallow it's a it's a cruel 457 00:21:03,810 --> 00:21:01,750 disease and it's the bad news is that 458 00:21:07,230 --> 00:21:03,820 the World Health Organization has said 459 00:21:10,110 --> 00:21:07,240 categorically that if we drop the ball 460 00:21:11,910 --> 00:21:10,120 now with vaccination we will go back to 461 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:11,920 the bad old days with hundreds of 462 00:21:18,420 --> 00:21:14,290 thousands of kids once again getting 463 00:21:21,450 --> 00:21:18,430 polio and frankly it's just too awful a 464 00:21:23,190 --> 00:21:21,460 thought to contemplate and if so forget 465 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:23,200 to get the chance basically donate 466 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:26,050 donate yes and talk about how important 467 00:21:30,330 --> 00:21:28,570 it is now can you see yourself getting 468 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:30,340 out there and running a chocolate wheel 469 00:21:33,540 --> 00:21:31,930 on the back of a truck in Pakistan at 470 00:21:35,370 --> 00:21:33,550 some stage it happens all the time 471 00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:35,380 around newcastle where I ever all you 472 00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:37,240 guys should do that I would love to get 473 00:21:41,930 --> 00:21:40,000 to Pakistan or Nigeria or somewhere like 474 00:21:44,490 --> 00:21:41,940 that and play my part on the ground 475 00:21:46,290 --> 00:21:44,500 absolutely if you haven't seen a 476 00:21:48,060 --> 00:21:46,300 Rotarian chocolate wheel on a Saturday 477 00:21:50,070 --> 00:21:48,070 afternoon a school fete it's a wonderful 478 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:50,080 thing it is a thing of wonder isn't it 479 00:21:55,140 --> 00:21:53,050 it's Australian legendary site yes and a 480 00:21:56,460 --> 00:21:55,150 burn thank you for your time tonight and 481 00:21:58,500 --> 00:21:56,470 good luck in your fight and like I say 482 00:22:02,040 --> 00:21:58,510 people donate thank you very much and by 483 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:02,050 the way rotary org is the place to go ok 484 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:04,090 judo Ben who we're here we're here but 485 00:22:08,460 --> 00:22:06,850 who could happen hey hey did you get my 486 00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:08,470 first of all before we tell i've been on 487 00:22:12,990 --> 00:22:11,110 on the case of the lucas machine which i 488 00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:13,000 think is a very exciting device and i 489 00:22:17,550 --> 00:22:14,260 said you an email about that what did 490 00:22:19,230 --> 00:22:17,560 you think about that did you oh i sent 491 00:22:22,980 --> 00:22:19,240 you an email about Lucas machine which 492 00:22:25,140 --> 00:22:22,990 is the mechanical chest compression 493 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:25,150 device used by emergency services 494 00:22:30,150 --> 00:22:27,490 sometimes in the States but to England 495 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:30,160 yeah and and I've spoken to a fuel 496 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:31,930 emergency departments in Australia and 497 00:22:35,430 --> 00:22:34,090 and they feel that they don't need it 498 00:22:37,260 --> 00:22:35,440 because they've got people that can do 499 00:22:38,460 --> 00:22:37,270 that and that's certainly true and the 500 00:22:39,690 --> 00:22:38,470 health budget is something you don't 501 00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:39,700 want to stretch too much what do you 502 00:22:43,290 --> 00:22:41,110 feel about a mechanical chest 503 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:43,300 compression device well people are very 504 00:22:47,610 --> 00:22:44,770 good at giving chest compressions 505 00:22:50,430 --> 00:22:47,620 because they're extremely tiring and if 506 00:22:51,630 --> 00:22:50,440 you can't sing the Bee Gees song staying 507 00:22:53,910 --> 00:22:51,640 alive in your head 508 00:22:56,370 --> 00:22:53,920 and keep up the pace of 100 beats per 509 00:22:58,260 --> 00:22:56,380 minute well we all know that well we 510 00:23:00,540 --> 00:22:58,270 don't all know but chest compressions 511 00:23:03,390 --> 00:23:00,550 chest compressions are now known to be 512 00:23:04,410 --> 00:23:03,400 the most effective way of giving CPR so 513 00:23:06,150 --> 00:23:04,420 I figure out you have a chest 514 00:23:08,820 --> 00:23:06,160 compression device that could do that 515 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:08,830 well that could be pretty good but my 516 00:23:14,370 --> 00:23:11,890 concern is how are you going to have it 517 00:23:15,810 --> 00:23:14,380 available quickly enough and put it in 518 00:23:18,330 --> 00:23:15,820 plate I mean I haven't seen the device 519 00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:18,340 so the time that you're taking to sort 520 00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:20,320 of connect this thing up and oh you're 521 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:22,000 losing valuable compression time yeah 522 00:23:26,850 --> 00:23:24,610 well where I have seen it and I want to 523 00:23:29,460 --> 00:23:26,860 point listeners to this is there's a few 524 00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:29,470 different demonstrations online in the 525 00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:31,840 UK I think if there is a strain 526 00:23:35,970 --> 00:23:33,310 distributor on it and they show it but 527 00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:35,980 emergency services have it I imagine if 528 00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:37,840 it was a two-person paramedic team if 529 00:23:42,050 --> 00:23:39,310 one person was doing some compressions 530 00:23:45,180 --> 00:23:42,060 while the other person put it in place 531 00:23:47,670 --> 00:23:45,190 okay okay it looks like a semicircle 532 00:23:49,770 --> 00:23:47,680 that goes around the patient and 533 00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:49,780 underneath it sometimes you can strap 534 00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:51,310 the patient's arms to the side of it so 535 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:52,480 they don't flail around get in the way 536 00:23:57,180 --> 00:23:54,490 and it's like a plunger that goes down 537 00:23:58,710 --> 00:23:57,190 on the chest yep yeah and I thought I 538 00:24:01,380 --> 00:23:58,720 think it also has some incubation as 539 00:24:03,660 --> 00:24:01,390 well good actually worked very easy and 540 00:24:05,730 --> 00:24:03,670 is what got my attention was that I was 541 00:24:08,250 --> 00:24:05,740 listening to a near death experience 542 00:24:11,010 --> 00:24:08,260 chat actually and they were saying that 543 00:24:13,260 --> 00:24:11,020 and this is a case where a clear case 544 00:24:14,490 --> 00:24:13,270 for this use would be someone wasn't 545 00:24:15,930 --> 00:24:14,500 feeling well they went into the 546 00:24:18,090 --> 00:24:15,940 emergency room at a hospital they were 547 00:24:19,980 --> 00:24:18,100 40 year old male and they had a heart 548 00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:19,990 attack in the emergency room they put 549 00:24:25,620 --> 00:24:22,740 them on this device for three hours now 550 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:25,630 immediately I'm thinking human couldn't 551 00:24:29,430 --> 00:24:26,890 do chest compressions for three hours 552 00:24:31,290 --> 00:24:29,440 but also would you normally want to do 553 00:24:32,550 --> 00:24:31,300 that and yet and then suddenly their 554 00:24:34,830 --> 00:24:32,560 heart started and they walked out a 555 00:24:36,570 --> 00:24:34,840 hospital two days later so this actually 556 00:24:38,550 --> 00:24:36,580 happened this actually happened New York 557 00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:38,560 can take a forty-year-old cab drive in 558 00:24:42,660 --> 00:24:40,480 New York they were using this device in 559 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:42,670 the emergency they had it there as a 560 00:24:46,980 --> 00:24:45,010 device this guy killed over heart 561 00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:46,990 stopped in in the emergency room and 562 00:24:49,890 --> 00:24:48,640 they put them on the device and the 563 00:24:51,420 --> 00:24:49,900 thing is they kept them on for three 564 00:24:53,130 --> 00:24:51,430 hours so if you have a device that can 565 00:24:54,690 --> 00:24:53,140 do this how do you know when to stop 566 00:24:56,770 --> 00:24:54,700 that's what the sig there's also an 567 00:24:58,750 --> 00:24:56,780 ethical implications 568 00:25:01,180 --> 00:24:58,760 you know where to stop because when 569 00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:01,190 you're doing CPR you're monitoring the 570 00:25:04,990 --> 00:25:03,440 patient's heart rate if you're doing it 571 00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:05,000 in a clinical environment which you 572 00:25:08,530 --> 00:25:06,710 would be an emergency you would actually 573 00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:08,540 have them strapped up to little 574 00:25:14,380 --> 00:25:11,510 electrodes that would be reading the me 575 00:25:17,290 --> 00:25:14,390 Hartman and and you actually do stop 576 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:17,300 very very briefly to check I you get the 577 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:19,250 machine doesn't giving them adrenaline 578 00:25:22,990 --> 00:25:21,050 and you know it's not like when you're 579 00:25:26,110 --> 00:25:23,000 at the street all you can really do is 580 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:26,120 just you know Chris the hot so if 581 00:25:29,620 --> 00:25:28,130 they're using it in this context then 582 00:25:31,390 --> 00:25:29,630 there must have been some evidence 583 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:31,400 behind it for them to have started using 584 00:25:34,810 --> 00:25:32,810 it they can't you can't just walk into a 585 00:25:36,670 --> 00:25:34,820 hospital and site using a device without 586 00:25:39,490 --> 00:25:36,680 there being any evidence yes but yeah 587 00:25:41,020 --> 00:25:39,500 yeah I'm just that's why I'm wondering 588 00:25:42,490 --> 00:25:41,030 more about the advisement but let me 589 00:25:44,110 --> 00:25:42,500 tell you so sorry that I haven't read 590 00:25:46,450 --> 00:25:44,120 your email problem because now I have to 591 00:25:49,390 --> 00:25:46,460 look into it because the head of the 592 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:49,400 emergency department at Newcastle's said 593 00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:51,650 that you know but they said they have 594 00:25:54,820 --> 00:25:52,880 people to do that and I think that's a 595 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:54,830 perfectly adequate response if you've 596 00:25:59,740 --> 00:25:56,690 ever had to give complete look we all 597 00:26:02,710 --> 00:25:59,750 have to do CPR training every year as 598 00:26:04,890 --> 00:26:02,720 medical people and I can tell you now 599 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:04,900 that just doing it for a minute is 600 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:07,010 exhausting so there was a way to get 601 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:08,930 something who could do it for us and do 602 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:11,810 it effectively sign me up but I'm also 603 00:26:14,650 --> 00:26:13,250 thinking from the head of an emergency 604 00:26:15,940 --> 00:26:14,660 department you're also going to slice up 605 00:26:17,140 --> 00:26:15,950 your budget different ways so if you 606 00:26:18,490 --> 00:26:17,150 spend money on a machine like this 607 00:26:22,630 --> 00:26:18,500 that's something you can't spend on 608 00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:22,640 something else long term so if you're 609 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:25,370 able to if the device that this is 610 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:27,170 effective but it's not proven in this 611 00:26:31,300 --> 00:26:29,570 country no but if it is demonstrated to 612 00:26:34,090 --> 00:26:31,310 be effective it would have to first of 613 00:26:35,530 --> 00:26:34,100 all go through it beauty Goods 614 00:26:36,370 --> 00:26:35,540 Administration has to be registered with 615 00:26:39,779 --> 00:26:36,380 the Therapeutic Goods Administration 616 00:26:41,609 --> 00:26:39,789 that's what I was told absolutely and 617 00:26:44,129 --> 00:26:41,619 is that if there is evidence to support 618 00:26:46,409 --> 00:26:44,139 it and then they buy it you kind of have 619 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:46,419 to think of the long-term costs so the 620 00:26:51,419 --> 00:26:49,330 cost on the health system of sort of you 621 00:26:53,580 --> 00:26:51,429 know looking after an unwell patient 622 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:53,590 versus the cost of actually being able 623 00:26:57,239 --> 00:26:55,690 to rescue a patient without significant 624 00:26:58,859 --> 00:26:57,249 damage to their how there's lots of kind 625 00:27:02,759 --> 00:26:58,869 of health economics things around that 626 00:27:03,899 --> 00:27:02,769 kind of stuff here yes you might be 627 00:27:06,599 --> 00:27:03,909 interested to know because this just 628 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:06,609 reminds him many many years ago when I 629 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:10,450 was working in London I got ya I was 630 00:27:13,649 --> 00:27:12,129 quite a young young little nurse at the 631 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:13,659 time without a huge amount of experience 632 00:27:21,899 --> 00:27:18,369 and I got a job just you know for a few 633 00:27:24,089 --> 00:27:21,909 months as a sort of trial clinical trial 634 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:24,099 sort of research nurse for something 635 00:27:30,330 --> 00:27:27,129 called external counterpulsation and 636 00:27:32,969 --> 00:27:30,340 what this is is they get these like 637 00:27:34,769 --> 00:27:32,979 these cuffs velcro cuffs and they strap 638 00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:34,779 it around your carbs and around your 639 00:27:39,690 --> 00:27:37,200 thighs and around your abdomen and it 640 00:27:41,879 --> 00:27:39,700 pulses and sort of squeezes and the 641 00:27:43,649 --> 00:27:41,889 whole body gets kind of squeezed and the 642 00:27:47,099 --> 00:27:43,659 idea behind it was that it was supposed 643 00:27:48,659 --> 00:27:47,109 to help people who had angina now I have 644 00:27:51,389 --> 00:27:48,669 a strong suspicion that it was 645 00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:51,399 completely hmm but I haven't gone back 646 00:27:55,619 --> 00:27:54,190 and checked up that being said if you 647 00:27:57,659 --> 00:27:55,629 ever want to go online and look up 648 00:27:59,249 --> 00:27:57,669 external counterpulsation and find some 649 00:28:01,739 --> 00:27:59,259 videos of people strapped in very 650 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:01,749 strange medical devices look that one up 651 00:28:05,999 --> 00:28:03,970 it seems to me like that would be for 652 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:06,009 peripheral circulation no it's actually 653 00:28:09,839 --> 00:28:07,809 that the idea behind it was that it's 654 00:28:14,009 --> 00:28:09,849 somehow did something to the diastolic 655 00:28:15,899 --> 00:28:14,019 blood pressure and people who had what 656 00:28:18,659 --> 00:28:15,909 they called refractory angina which is 657 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:18,669 angina or chest pain that is resistant 658 00:28:23,039 --> 00:28:21,369 to medical treatment otherwise that it 659 00:28:25,019 --> 00:28:23,049 was supposed to actually reduce their 660 00:28:26,879 --> 00:28:25,029 use of medication I think it had a 661 00:28:28,049 --> 00:28:26,889 strong placebo effect because the fact 662 00:28:29,669 --> 00:28:28,059 that I was sitting in the room with the 663 00:28:30,899 --> 00:28:29,679 patient for about three hours while they 664 00:28:32,940 --> 00:28:30,909 were strapped to this machine and it 665 00:28:34,669 --> 00:28:32,950 also knows the white coat effect like oh 666 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:34,679 well no the white coat effect actually 667 00:28:38,250 --> 00:28:37,090 generally has the opposite effect a part 668 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:38,260 of as a 669 00:28:41,580 --> 00:28:39,730 sebo effects of people's blood pressure 670 00:28:43,590 --> 00:28:41,590 goes up when they see someone in a white 671 00:28:45,990 --> 00:28:43,600 coat okay by the way I have my blood 672 00:28:48,810 --> 00:28:46,000 pressure done this week 110 over 65 has 673 00:28:51,150 --> 00:28:48,820 a very good blood pressure not tulo is 674 00:28:53,370 --> 00:28:51,160 it I'm not too shabby I should no no 675 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:53,380 that's pretty good good okay well I'll 676 00:28:57,930 --> 00:28:55,450 go and do something with it nice juicy 677 00:28:59,400 --> 00:28:57,940 steak now if you were to bait if you 678 00:29:01,710 --> 00:28:59,410 were to debate like Bill Nye did this 679 00:29:07,590 --> 00:29:01,720 week a young earth creationist do reckon 680 00:29:10,740 --> 00:29:07,600 you could take them on see they tend to 681 00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:10,750 dish Gallup and because it's not my area 682 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:13,510 of expertise I reckon I'd end up finding 683 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:15,690 myself on stage looking a little bit 684 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:18,730 worse for wear okay look also in the 685 00:29:22,220 --> 00:29:20,890 news this week we had ken harvey resign 686 00:29:25,110 --> 00:29:22,230 because of how he felt about his 687 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:25,120 university's conduct what would make you 688 00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:27,730 resign from your job any job like what 689 00:29:30,930 --> 00:29:29,440 you go that's it you can take this job 690 00:29:34,290 --> 00:29:30,940 and and shove shove it up your 691 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:34,300 cerebellum because i work in clinical 692 00:29:40,260 --> 00:29:37,810 trials the major thing that I'm 693 00:29:43,470 --> 00:29:40,270 concerned about is ethics someone 694 00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:43,480 fiddling the books so so research 695 00:29:48,150 --> 00:29:45,760 misconduct so if I was ever in a 696 00:29:51,410 --> 00:29:48,160 situation in a job where I knew that 697 00:29:55,170 --> 00:29:51,420 researchers were behaving unethically 698 00:29:58,110 --> 00:29:55,180 messing with the data or for example if 699 00:30:01,020 --> 00:29:58,120 I worked in the Burzynski clinic in in 700 00:30:03,630 --> 00:30:01,030 Houston like I'm sure there must be some 701 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:03,640 of my nursing colleagues who do I would 702 00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:05,170 resign from a job in the business ki 703 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:07,360 clinic because that's a situation where 704 00:30:11,030 --> 00:30:09,010 I would not be at all comfortable with 705 00:30:13,470 --> 00:30:11,040 what they're doing to the patients 706 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:13,480 because the big question here it's a 707 00:30:16,410 --> 00:30:15,010 tougher question to what we normally ask 708 00:30:18,210 --> 00:30:16,420 and how I you tonight anyway what do you 709 00:30:21,420 --> 00:30:18,220 think of a great talk was not yes Bert 710 00:30:22,830 --> 00:30:21,430 oh yes news very interesting and do you 711 00:30:24,330 --> 00:30:22,840 think you could check a bill nye do you 712 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:24,340 think it could take on a young earth 713 00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:26,650 creationist or some sort of whoop edler 714 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:30,910 on stage no I don't think so i'm pretty 715 00:30:36,169 --> 00:30:33,450 sure that they have their mind made up 716 00:30:39,230 --> 00:30:36,179 wouldn't matter what I said it wouldn't 717 00:30:41,659 --> 00:30:39,240 change related I don't think anything I 718 00:30:43,310 --> 00:30:41,669 could say could ever convince them and 719 00:30:46,250 --> 00:30:43,320 how do you think bill went did you see 720 00:30:49,370 --> 00:30:46,260 any of it I didn't okay sorry but 10 721 00:30:51,049 --> 00:30:49,380 points are having to go and what about 722 00:30:53,149 --> 00:30:51,059 what Ken Harvey can have you resigned 723 00:30:54,860 --> 00:30:53,159 this week was he went no no take this 724 00:30:57,259 --> 00:30:54,870 job and put it in your para bellum he 725 00:30:58,610 --> 00:30:57,269 said or your quadrangle because say he 726 00:30:59,930 --> 00:30:58,620 didn't want any more could you see a 727 00:31:01,430 --> 00:30:59,940 case at work where you might do that 728 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:01,440 with something it's not all any endeavor 729 00:31:07,759 --> 00:31:05,130 I think it takes a lot of guts yes it's 730 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:07,769 a huge thing I good on him I think that 731 00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:09,570 he's definitely taking the right ethical 732 00:31:14,330 --> 00:31:12,720 stance here and I'm quite shocked that 733 00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:14,340 the university didn't see that there is 734 00:31:20,810 --> 00:31:19,529 a conflict of interest I I think yes 735 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:20,820 when it comes to these things I mean 736 00:31:25,190 --> 00:31:23,130 your behavior and your decisions you do 737 00:31:27,230 --> 00:31:25,200 what you would be comfortable seeing on 738 00:31:29,299 --> 00:31:27,240 front page news which is what happened 739 00:31:31,070 --> 00:31:29,309 with Kenya and absolutely and he is 740 00:31:34,450 --> 00:31:31,080 totally comfortable with his decision 741 00:31:37,940 --> 00:31:34,460 and and I wonder if the university is 742 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:37,950 I'm gonna sit down oh look up the 743 00:31:41,620 --> 00:31:39,690 Richard Saunders he is ticket can't take 744 00:31:43,669 --> 00:31:41,630 it he has to sit down but till we have 745 00:31:44,810 --> 00:31:43,679 we've made a lot of people here on the 746 00:31:46,490 --> 00:31:44,820 skeptic zone and we have a lot of 747 00:31:48,169 --> 00:31:46,500 listeners from all around the world look 748 00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:48,179 into MIT right now and just buy him 749 00:31:52,070 --> 00:31:49,440 saying is known can you guess what 750 00:31:54,110 --> 00:31:52,080 country is from Hello rub where would 751 00:31:56,750 --> 00:31:54,120 you think he's from is he from North 752 00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,760 America is he from South America and 753 00:32:00,950 --> 00:31:58,559 require no we're okay we're flipping 754 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:00,960 over the cars where you from Rob well 755 00:32:04,700 --> 00:32:02,130 nobody ever gets it right but it's 756 00:32:07,250 --> 00:32:04,710 Brazil but what do they say they say 757 00:32:10,129 --> 00:32:07,260 Paraguay they say chile they say 758 00:32:11,299 --> 00:32:10,139 basically everything but Brazil ash it's 759 00:32:12,470 --> 00:32:11,309 one of the biggest one since I think 760 00:32:14,990 --> 00:32:12,480 it's the biggest one so familiar isn't 761 00:32:17,930 --> 00:32:15,000 it is and somehow it's just sort of a 762 00:32:19,419 --> 00:32:17,940 little easily forgotten but like Brazil 763 00:32:21,529 --> 00:32:19,429 when I think of Brazil I think of 764 00:32:24,830 --> 00:32:21,539 Volkswagens the original air-cooled ones 765 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:24,840 I think of a really really good meat 766 00:32:28,370 --> 00:32:26,610 exports they have you have a really good 767 00:32:30,590 --> 00:32:28,380 meat a brazilian meat is fantastic and 768 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:30,600 and waxing those are the three things a 769 00:32:35,269 --> 00:32:32,490 lot of people think of hopefully not in 770 00:32:36,889 --> 00:32:35,279 conjunction i guess and you are in one 771 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:36,899 of those created cities like we have 772 00:32:40,580 --> 00:32:38,970 canberra you're in the capital which is 773 00:32:42,619 --> 00:32:40,590 where it's in the middle of nowhere 774 00:32:43,820 --> 00:32:42,629 isn't it in the middle of a desert it's 775 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:43,830 called Brasilia and it was entirely 776 00:32:48,220 --> 00:32:45,650 planned in nineteen sixty 777 00:32:49,660 --> 00:32:48,230 it looks like it's from the future pass 778 00:32:51,250 --> 00:32:49,670 it looks like what somebody in the 50s 779 00:32:53,380 --> 00:32:51,260 would think of the future and it was 780 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:53,390 everyone must know the Brazilian flag it 781 00:32:56,130 --> 00:32:54,410 would have to be one of the coolest 782 00:32:58,630 --> 00:32:56,140 flags in the world but that really 783 00:33:01,240 --> 00:32:58,640 Dayglow map of the world the gate that 784 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:01,250 is so cool that is a cool flag almost as 785 00:33:04,030 --> 00:33:02,690 cool as Libya's which is just plain 786 00:33:05,860 --> 00:33:04,040 green which i think is really bold 787 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:05,870 really if you think about it it's just 788 00:33:09,910 --> 00:33:07,610 plain green it's just green I think it 789 00:33:12,310 --> 00:33:09,920 takes a lot of um cojones to discover 790 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:12,320 the green flag yeah well I I believe 791 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:13,850 that was the original plan for the Irish 792 00:33:18,550 --> 00:33:15,610 flag but they they never got it together 793 00:33:22,090 --> 00:33:18,560 no no I can't really comment on the 794 00:33:24,820 --> 00:33:22,100 Irish because what you can comment on on 795 00:33:26,830 --> 00:33:24,830 what finds you here suddenly you're in 796 00:33:28,990 --> 00:33:26,840 Brazil I suspect teens are men in black 797 00:33:30,970 --> 00:33:29,000 I think it is if you see some ancient 798 00:33:32,740 --> 00:33:30,980 aliens near any sort of any sort of 799 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:32,750 ancient monument you come along and you 800 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:34,730 tell them no no you were never there is 801 00:33:39,790 --> 00:33:37,970 that your job if it were my job okay I 802 00:33:41,950 --> 00:33:39,800 couldn't really say is my job but i'll 803 00:33:44,020 --> 00:33:41,960 tell you what manner a wink once if 804 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:44,030 that's actually my job and the podcast 805 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:44,930 listeners will just have to guess 806 00:33:49,540 --> 00:33:46,490 whether I waiting to one or twice or not 807 00:33:51,220 --> 00:33:49,550 at all okay say more well erich von 808 00:33:53,230 --> 00:33:51,230 daniken me off i tell you what it's 809 00:33:55,930 --> 00:33:53,240 quite a show here today and how did you 810 00:33:58,810 --> 00:33:55,940 find an australian podcast and start 811 00:34:00,640 --> 00:33:58,820 listening to it and enjoy it well i 812 00:34:02,590 --> 00:34:00,650 think it's very easy to enjoy for one I 813 00:34:04,810 --> 00:34:02,600 found it through the skeptics guide I 814 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:04,820 listened to them first and foremost I 815 00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:07,730 think like most skeptics overseas and 816 00:34:12,700 --> 00:34:09,679 they're a terrible gateway drug really 817 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:12,710 so then I got to the skeptic zone and 818 00:34:15,310 --> 00:34:13,850 I've been listening for many years 819 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:15,320 without ever thinking that I would see 820 00:34:21,220 --> 00:34:17,330 Australia or any of you and now here I 821 00:34:22,659 --> 00:34:21,230 am we have a more of a library format to 822 00:34:23,950 --> 00:34:22,669 the way data there we have reports from 823 00:34:25,630 --> 00:34:23,960 all over the place we have different 824 00:34:27,270 --> 00:34:25,640 reporters and everything it it's a bit 825 00:34:29,649 --> 00:34:27,280 more disjointed than the skeptics guide 826 00:34:31,690 --> 00:34:29,659 it is it is but I think that's part of 827 00:34:34,510 --> 00:34:31,700 the charm as well and it's it's got a 828 00:34:38,610 --> 00:34:34,520 more of a recurring aspect to it a lot 829 00:34:44,380 --> 00:34:38,620 of recurring characters in the skeptics 830 00:34:45,700 --> 00:34:44,390 so you see so it had a favorite report 831 00:34:48,070 --> 00:34:45,710 is a report that's really stuck in your 832 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:48,080 head from anyone from dr. rachy or Joe 833 00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:49,850 or something I've done well honestly I 834 00:34:54,340 --> 00:34:51,919 just love all of the yearly mind-body 835 00:34:56,590 --> 00:34:54,350 wallets or or or violence or ever and 836 00:34:58,870 --> 00:34:56,600 honestly I would like to go to one I 837 00:35:01,480 --> 00:34:58,880 would like to come to Australian see 838 00:35:02,590 --> 00:35:01,490 this event because it seems I I agree 839 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:02,600 with what Richard says it does seem like 840 00:35:06,190 --> 00:35:03,530 a lot of fun and does seem like a 841 00:35:08,410 --> 00:35:06,200 worthwhile experience to see what's 842 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:08,420 going on look yes it was a lot of fun at 843 00:35:12,190 --> 00:35:10,490 the last one I went to we did the final 844 00:35:13,690 --> 00:35:12,200 episode of a dirty disbelievers episode 845 00:35:15,250 --> 00:35:13,700 9 where we all went along there and 846 00:35:17,830 --> 00:35:15,260 Richard got called a rude word that 847 00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:17,840 started with c and it wasn't clever yeah 848 00:35:21,490 --> 00:35:20,240 and yeah and dr. H almost got into a 849 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:21,500 fistfight with people it was a pretty 850 00:35:27,970 --> 00:35:24,770 wild well time well time was the word 851 00:35:29,620 --> 00:35:27,980 Christian that fault I've no no I'm 852 00:35:33,010 --> 00:35:29,630 tonight so no that wasn't the other I 853 00:35:34,660 --> 00:35:33,020 can't say the word because Richards 854 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:34,670 recovering from his chest infection it 855 00:35:39,220 --> 00:35:35,930 you probably hear from the intro on the 856 00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:39,230 outer of this and you happen to land in 857 00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:41,510 Sydney when we're doing a skeptics in 858 00:35:44,980 --> 00:35:43,730 the pub now a bit more about Brazil you 859 00:35:47,050 --> 00:35:44,990 telling me earlier that it's probably 860 00:35:48,430 --> 00:35:47,060 one of the most unscripted cool places 861 00:35:50,740 --> 00:35:48,440 on earth is that because of the 862 00:35:52,630 --> 00:35:50,750 Catholicism or what would you put it 863 00:35:53,980 --> 00:35:52,640 down to well I wouldn't say but one of 864 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:53,990 the most in skeptical places because you 865 00:35:59,140 --> 00:35:56,090 know I haven't really been in that many 866 00:36:01,630 --> 00:35:59,150 places but it does have a history of 867 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:01,640 sort of a traditional on skeptical 868 00:36:07,090 --> 00:36:03,650 outlook which i think is changing slowly 869 00:36:09,670 --> 00:36:07,100 but it is part of our culture I wouldn't 870 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:09,680 blame it only on Catholicism or only on 871 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:12,170 religion at all i think it has probably 872 00:36:16,510 --> 00:36:13,970 very complex classes that i won't 873 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:16,520 venture into but it's everything it goes 874 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:19,810 from spirituality to a general 875 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:22,370 willingness to believe things really to 876 00:36:27,130 --> 00:36:25,850 believe a theories and not ideas and 877 00:36:28,870 --> 00:36:27,140 what's the whew that gets your goat 878 00:36:32,590 --> 00:36:28,880 what's the one that you go not this 879 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:32,600 again probably astrology just because of 880 00:36:38,050 --> 00:36:35,210 how widespread it still is despite 881 00:36:41,470 --> 00:36:38,060 everything and despite being so obvious 882 00:36:44,290 --> 00:36:41,480 and so clearly debunk able to just see 883 00:36:46,660 --> 00:36:44,300 smart people still talk about it and 884 00:36:47,410 --> 00:36:46,670 still i give that usual defense of well 885 00:36:49,210 --> 00:36:47,420 of course you can't believe the 886 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:49,220 newspaper astrology but but the good 887 00:36:52,810 --> 00:36:50,810 star chart the really really well 888 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:52,820 researched really solid started that one 889 00:36:56,470 --> 00:36:54,650 if that one's real that one nothing's 890 00:36:58,690 --> 00:36:56,480 important and also I'd like you to give 891 00:37:00,040 --> 00:36:58,700 a call out to our international friends 892 00:37:01,780 --> 00:37:00,050 that listen to the skeptic zone that are 893 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:01,790 out there and have never dropped us a 894 00:37:04,780 --> 00:37:03,050 line like I don't think we've ever had 895 00:37:07,330 --> 00:37:04,790 any correspondence from Brazil have 896 00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:07,340 little richard ever part over the five 897 00:37:11,290 --> 00:37:09,110 or six years we could have but nothing 898 00:37:12,580 --> 00:37:11,300 really springs to mind but could we do 899 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:12,590 have listeners there because i can see 900 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:14,450 the stats of course yeah yeah yes so 901 00:37:17,980 --> 00:37:16,610 yeah so just let them know to drop us a 902 00:37:21,580 --> 00:37:17,990 line and that we don't bite could you 903 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:21,590 tell them that absolutely uh they don't 904 00:37:26,890 --> 00:37:24,650 bite very hard Maynard maybe a little 905 00:37:29,050 --> 00:37:26,900 harder than most I'll become it's worth 906 00:37:31,390 --> 00:37:29,060 traveling across the world to see this 907 00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:31,400 the shirt i'm wearing yeah yeah maynard 908 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:33,710 shirt or legendary I really almost grew 909 00:37:36,820 --> 00:37:34,970 up listening the legends of maynards 910 00:37:41,470 --> 00:37:36,830 shirts not and now I'm seeing them in 911 00:37:43,210 --> 00:37:41,480 person that's Africa yeah I really can't 912 00:37:44,020 --> 00:37:43,220 describe it in an audio you have to see 913 00:37:45,850 --> 00:37:44,030 it for yourself you had to come to 914 00:37:48,220 --> 00:37:45,860 Australia and then see Maynard shirts I 915 00:37:50,530 --> 00:37:48,230 shout out to allow Brazilian listeners 916 00:37:51,970 --> 00:37:50,540 in Portuguese at you claro brasil 917 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:51,980 illustrative of you know podcast the 918 00:37:57,010 --> 00:37:54,050 skeptic zone in Karachi to deserve it 919 00:37:59,680 --> 00:37:57,020 like a queen superstar he be so mentally 920 00:38:01,210 --> 00:37:59,690 some cleavage Utah Nevada touchdown pass 921 00:38:03,790 --> 00:38:01,220 a French knows its eternal Brazil to me 922 00:38:05,500 --> 00:38:03,800 I just felt like I was in Brasilia in 923 00:38:07,540 --> 00:38:05,510 the back of a volkswagen taxi then just 924 00:38:09,130 --> 00:38:07,550 for a moment being charged far too much 925 00:38:11,590 --> 00:38:09,140 and being driven the wrong way and 926 00:38:13,450 --> 00:38:11,600 talking about skepticism so is there is 927 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:13,460 many skeptics movements here are you a 928 00:38:17,140 --> 00:38:15,010 member of a skeptics movement there I 929 00:38:18,130 --> 00:38:17,150 don't know of any I don't want to say 930 00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:18,140 that there aren't any because I'm afraid 931 00:38:21,070 --> 00:38:19,520 that somebody will listen to this and 932 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:21,080 rosanna say oh that's outrageous he 933 00:38:25,780 --> 00:38:23,330 forgot our phone foundational movement 934 00:38:27,220 --> 00:38:25,790 here in Brazil but I don't know if any i 935 00:38:30,010 --> 00:38:27,230 hope they're out there and i hope i 936 00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:30,020 managed to find them at some point but 937 00:38:33,220 --> 00:38:31,730 if there aren't any there certainly 938 00:38:34,900 --> 00:38:33,230 should be so hopefully this will be a 939 00:38:36,490 --> 00:38:34,910 start look it's been a great supplies 940 00:38:38,170 --> 00:38:36,500 and the pleasure meeting someone from 941 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:38,180 brazil coming all this way and ending up 942 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:40,850 in a really chevy dark pub in sydney yet 943 00:38:44,380 --> 00:38:43,370 look don't think any worse of us you 944 00:38:45,550 --> 00:38:44,390 know i'll definitely try and be back 945 00:38:47,730 --> 00:38:45,560 whenever i'm ready to cross the world 946 00:38:49,930 --> 00:38:47,740 again so thank you very much everyone 947 00:38:52,330 --> 00:38:49,940 and who we got here we've got a visitor 948 00:38:53,770 --> 00:38:52,340 from far away Joe alabaster and where 949 00:38:55,690 --> 00:38:53,780 have you come from I have come from the 950 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:55,700 Blue Mountains wow so was that like the 951 00:38:59,890 --> 00:38:57,170 Concord kind of thing what was it like 952 00:39:01,630 --> 00:38:59,900 that was two hours on the train that's 953 00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:01,640 just like the Concord I mean really the 954 00:39:03,460 --> 00:39:02,960 new south wales transport system is 955 00:39:05,790 --> 00:39:03,470 perhaps the 956 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:05,800 in the world exactly it was fantastic 957 00:39:09,940 --> 00:39:08,450 luxury now because it's a big skeptical 958 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:09,950 week as we've heard we've got a lot of 959 00:39:13,180 --> 00:39:11,690 big action happening in various parts of 960 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:13,190 the world how do you think bill nye went 961 00:39:18,790 --> 00:39:16,330 in his debate witness to ham oh I 962 00:39:23,740 --> 00:39:18,800 frankly enjoyed what he had to say I 963 00:39:26,050 --> 00:39:23,750 question whether I'm not sure whether he 964 00:39:28,030 --> 00:39:26,060 was actually likely to convert anybody 965 00:39:30,670 --> 00:39:28,040 to his side I shouldn't say convert 966 00:39:34,359 --> 00:39:30,680 because that's kind of the job of ken 967 00:39:35,770 --> 00:39:34,369 ham oh yeah I really enjoyed sort of the 968 00:39:38,980 --> 00:39:35,780 big long science smackdown that was 969 00:39:40,780 --> 00:39:38,990 fantastic for me as an audience but I'm 970 00:39:42,670 --> 00:39:40,790 not sure that it would have reached Ken 971 00:39:44,770 --> 00:39:42,680 hams fans do you thought it would be I 972 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:44,780 as I mentioned before thought it might 973 00:39:47,349 --> 00:39:45,770 have been better if someone from perhaps 974 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:47,359 the Atheist Experience debated him 975 00:39:50,650 --> 00:39:49,130 someone with a bit more of a theological 976 00:39:53,230 --> 00:39:50,660 grounding and they could have countered 977 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:53,240 the theological arguments I would have 978 00:39:57,609 --> 00:39:55,010 really enjoyed it if Aaron wrote on it 979 00:39:59,680 --> 00:39:57,619 actually yeah and how would you give 980 00:40:04,240 --> 00:39:59,690 bill out of 10 in debating in such a 981 00:40:06,490 --> 00:40:04,250 difficult condition Oh in debating I'm 982 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:06,500 gonna give him about a night yeah it's I 983 00:40:10,270 --> 00:40:08,170 mean it's a very difficult task kind of 984 00:40:12,099 --> 00:40:10,280 some people are questioning whether he 985 00:40:14,380 --> 00:40:12,109 should have taken it on or not I'm not 986 00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:14,390 entirely sure it was entertaining as 987 00:40:19,089 --> 00:40:15,920 entertaining as these things can be I 988 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:19,099 think because ken harvey this this week 989 00:40:23,050 --> 00:40:21,170 of course resigned big skeptical news 990 00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:23,060 there do you think you could ever see 991 00:40:26,980 --> 00:40:25,250 yourself it in a job going and that's it 992 00:40:28,450 --> 00:40:26,990 I'm going out there armed and I'm going 993 00:40:31,599 --> 00:40:28,460 to take my t-shirt and bleach it and 994 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:31,609 leave I sincerely hope with just about 995 00:40:35,260 --> 00:40:33,290 every fibre of my thing that I would do 996 00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:35,270 the same thing I really very much 997 00:40:41,410 --> 00:40:37,250 respect what he's done and congratulate 998 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:41,420 him for it hmm but look the two hot 999 00:40:44,109 --> 00:40:42,890 topic is the week is what do you think 1000 00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:44,119 of the bill nye debate how do you think 1001 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:46,609 he went with ken ham well I might 1002 00:40:50,859 --> 00:40:49,010 deliberately didn't watch it what to go 1003 00:40:53,099 --> 00:40:50,869 then you have in the blue man she got TV 1004 00:40:55,270 --> 00:40:53,109 I think I knew he was going to come out 1005 00:40:58,150 --> 00:40:55,280 I've been involved I was involved in 1006 00:41:01,210 --> 00:40:58,160 with similar debate in 2005 and what I 1007 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:01,220 found was that the other side one more 1008 00:41:04,630 --> 00:41:03,170 yeah as I actually said something I was 1009 00:41:07,180 --> 00:41:04,640 yesterday so they actually put wheels 1010 00:41:08,230 --> 00:41:07,190 and a trailer hitch on the gold posts so 1011 00:41:10,540 --> 00:41:08,240 they can move them more easily to the 1012 00:41:12,339 --> 00:41:10,550 next suburb when you have these debates 1013 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:12,349 with these people they make the rules up 1014 00:41:16,260 --> 00:41:13,450 as they go along 1015 00:41:18,390 --> 00:41:16,270 and they're not honest you've heard 1016 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:18,400 arguments before but that doesn't matter 1017 00:41:21,690 --> 00:41:20,650 they'll just keep saying them so I don't 1018 00:41:24,270 --> 00:41:21,700 think anything's achieved by the 1019 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:24,280 students done I think that I think 1020 00:41:27,599 --> 00:41:26,290 Richard Dawkins was right in don't give 1021 00:41:29,579 --> 00:41:27,609 them a platform don't give them any 1022 00:41:32,550 --> 00:41:29,589 products or probability by arguing I 1023 00:41:35,130 --> 00:41:32,560 think so yes I said I made a mistake and 1024 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:35,140 I was on behalf of the Australian 1025 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:36,970 skeptics conducted it was a debate on 1026 00:41:42,690 --> 00:41:39,490 the sydney morning herald website i was 1027 00:41:44,940 --> 00:41:42,700 doing it by myself with people like Paul 1028 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:44,950 Wilson that on the on the other end via 1029 00:41:48,660 --> 00:41:47,170 email they had a whole staff of people 1030 00:41:50,970 --> 00:41:48,670 and what was in Answers in Genesis or 1031 00:41:53,339 --> 00:41:50,980 working on it okay I'm writing their 1032 00:41:54,690 --> 00:41:53,349 articles and they were just dishonest 1033 00:41:55,740 --> 00:41:54,700 they just kept changing what they were 1034 00:41:59,640 --> 00:41:55,750 saying they wouldn't address the 1035 00:42:01,380 --> 00:41:59,650 question at all and so I don't know a 1036 00:42:03,540 --> 00:42:01,390 good good that bill my I did it but I 1037 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:03,550 really think that probably he wouldn't 1038 00:42:07,170 --> 00:42:05,410 converted anybody from the other side as 1039 00:42:09,630 --> 00:42:07,180 somebody put out today they asked 22 1040 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:09,640 people for their comments I know the 1041 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:10,810 same things have been hearing for years 1042 00:42:13,890 --> 00:42:12,490 you know why are there still monkeys if 1043 00:42:16,050 --> 00:42:13,900 we were evolved from monkeys and sort of 1044 00:42:18,270 --> 00:42:16,060 monster it's the same reason Joe ball 1045 00:42:21,780 --> 00:42:18,280 yeah why do I have a grandfather when I 1046 00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:21,790 if I know if I had it why got cousins if 1047 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:24,160 I evolved yeah it was the answer that 1048 00:42:27,870 --> 00:42:25,690 quick so we've been hearing that stuff 1049 00:42:29,460 --> 00:42:27,880 to you sir so I think that it was good 1050 00:42:31,230 --> 00:42:29,470 at night to do it but I don't think it's 1051 00:42:32,849 --> 00:42:31,240 achieved anything that other than 1052 00:42:34,290 --> 00:42:32,859 probably to bring money they can't ken 1053 00:42:36,030 --> 00:42:34,300 ham because he put the show on at his 1054 00:42:38,460 --> 00:42:36,040 place I'm about the other Ken this 1055 00:42:39,900 --> 00:42:38,470 weekend Harvick he's resigned well how 1056 00:42:41,609 --> 00:42:39,910 do you feel about that would you do that 1057 00:42:42,930 --> 00:42:41,619 would you go I that's it on I'm going to 1058 00:42:45,170 --> 00:42:42,940 take my Hawaiian shirt and put in the 1059 00:42:49,530 --> 00:42:45,180 dryer I think he did the right thing 1060 00:42:51,510 --> 00:42:49,540 there are several issues here I think 1061 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:51,520 this particular one if Swiss had simply 1062 00:42:54,660 --> 00:42:53,290 said we're going to get 15 million 1063 00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:54,670 dollars to La Trobe University for 1064 00:42:58,500 --> 00:42:57,130 research there wouldn't be an issue what 1065 00:43:01,920 --> 00:42:58,510 they said was we're going to give you 1066 00:43:04,170 --> 00:43:01,930 money for research into our products 1067 00:43:05,430 --> 00:43:04,180 and so therefore it's tied money and 1068 00:43:07,140 --> 00:43:05,440 they're going to want results and the 1069 00:43:10,589 --> 00:43:07,150 results they want our people saying the 1070 00:43:11,910 --> 00:43:10,599 stuff works but look I haven't heard the 1071 00:43:13,290 --> 00:43:11,920 exact argument from the University but 1072 00:43:14,970 --> 00:43:13,300 they would say we're going to do the 1073 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:14,980 tests and they're going to be they're 1074 00:43:18,540 --> 00:43:16,450 going to be fair and honest and they're 1075 00:43:20,910 --> 00:43:18,550 going to fall where they would fall yeah 1076 00:43:22,710 --> 00:43:20,920 they'll say that I'm not and they may 1077 00:43:24,660 --> 00:43:22,720 believe that they made him do that but 1078 00:43:27,329 --> 00:43:24,670 the fact is it is it's a perception 1079 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:27,339 thing it wasn't just an untied grant to 1080 00:43:30,540 --> 00:43:28,690 a university research it was 1081 00:43:32,849 --> 00:43:30,550 specifically tied to specific products 1082 00:43:35,010 --> 00:43:32,859 and no matter how you play it that's 1083 00:43:36,540 --> 00:43:35,020 going to look bad mouth tight but don't 1084 00:43:38,549 --> 00:43:36,550 pharmaceutical companies do this all the 1085 00:43:40,620 --> 00:43:38,559 time they they pay to have research into 1086 00:43:41,609 --> 00:43:40,630 their into their drugs yeah they can 1087 00:43:43,109 --> 00:43:41,619 fund it but I think it's got to be more 1088 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:43,119 open than that they can say here's one 1089 00:43:47,220 --> 00:43:44,530 particular product we want you to do 1090 00:43:49,829 --> 00:43:47,230 testing will do a contract research but 1091 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:49,839 to say open-ended 15 million dollars out 1092 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:51,490 of so many years and you're only going 1093 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:53,650 to research our products is different to 1094 00:43:56,930 --> 00:43:54,970 come to a pharmaceutical company gunnery 1095 00:43:59,849 --> 00:43:56,940 university and saying but we've got a 1096 00:44:01,470 --> 00:43:59,859 possible new diabetic drag here we'd 1097 00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:01,480 like you to run clinical trials for us I 1098 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:03,040 think that's a different issue 1099 00:44:07,410 --> 00:44:06,490 altogether yeah but I respect my 1100 00:44:10,230 --> 00:44:07,420 principles I think he did the right 1101 00:44:11,660 --> 00:44:10,240 thing and by doing it he's given an 1102 00:44:14,420 --> 00:44:11,670 enormous publicity to it 1103 00:44:16,700 --> 00:44:14,430 yes I was it was right up there on the 1104 00:44:19,099 --> 00:44:16,710 ABC News I would if he'd just simply 1105 00:44:20,599 --> 00:44:19,109 quietly said I'm not going to do it but 1106 00:44:22,220 --> 00:44:20,609 what he did was he went public with it 1107 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:22,230 because he already has a public image 1108 00:44:27,620 --> 00:44:25,410 anyway and public persona the story was 1109 00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:27,630 up had legs it went on the ABC admit the 1110 00:44:33,950 --> 00:44:30,720 newspapers so now that the whole issue 1111 00:44:36,079 --> 00:44:33,960 of funded specific targeted research is 1112 00:44:37,730 --> 00:44:36,089 now coming to the in a public view for 1113 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:37,740 examination I think can do the right 1114 00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:39,210 thing and I think also the fact he's 1115 00:44:45,109 --> 00:44:42,240 gone public with it has raised this 1116 00:44:47,870 --> 00:44:45,119 issue of know how is funding done by 1117 00:44:49,549 --> 00:44:47,880 those companies know if the universities 1118 00:44:50,690 --> 00:44:49,559 are doing research is that research 1119 00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:50,700 tainted by the money that they're 1120 00:44:55,490 --> 00:44:53,040 getting in this case I think it would 1121 00:44:56,900 --> 00:44:55,500 have been even unconsciously but if it'd 1122 00:44:59,089 --> 00:44:56,910 been an untied grand if they just said 1123 00:45:00,589 --> 00:44:59,099 here's 15 million dollars to the medical 1124 00:45:01,910 --> 00:45:00,599 school but I think we'll have any 1125 00:45:26,510 --> 00:45:01,920 objection at all I don't think Kim would 1126 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:29,130 they give a listening to the skeptic 1127 00:45:36,690 --> 00:45:32,890 zone showed 277 and listeners around the 1128 00:45:38,010 --> 00:45:36,700 world might once again once again spare 1129 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:38,020 a thought for some of those people in 1130 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:41,170 Australia's I record this the TV news is 1131 00:45:44,609 --> 00:45:42,490 on in the background and I'm seeing 1132 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:44,619 people's houses burned down more bad 1133 00:45:50,580 --> 00:45:48,130 bush fires in Victoria in the state of 1134 00:45:53,340 --> 00:45:50,590 victoria at the moment and also warnings 1135 00:45:55,950 --> 00:45:53,350 for emergencies in the state of South 1136 00:45:57,690 --> 00:45:55,960 Australia thoughts going out to those 1137 00:45:59,910 --> 00:45:57,700 people those firefighters doing the 1138 00:46:01,950 --> 00:45:59,920 courageous job at the moment fighting 1139 00:46:04,109 --> 00:46:01,960 those terrible fires and I can tell you 1140 00:46:06,810 --> 00:46:04,119 it's quite a warm day here in Sydney 1141 00:46:09,090 --> 00:46:06,820 Australia as well and it's so warm in 1142 00:46:11,970 --> 00:46:09,100 fact I think Fred the caddis found 1143 00:46:14,670 --> 00:46:11,980 himself a nice quiet cool spot somewhere 1144 00:46:17,370 --> 00:46:14,680 and as fast asleep sounds like a good 1145 00:46:18,780 --> 00:46:17,380 idea folks until next week opening I'll 1146 00:46:20,460 --> 00:46:18,790 sound a little better this is Richard 1147 00:46:26,820 --> 00:46:20,470 Saunders signing off from Sydney 1148 00:46:31,530 --> 00:46:26,830 Australia you've been listening to the 1149 00:46:35,220 --> 00:46:31,540 skeptic zone visit our website at www